1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,680 [Music] 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:19,680 Hello and welcome to our podcast Talk Gruesome To Me, where we talk about movies and shows that cover true crime, paranormal and horror. 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:27,920 I am one of your hosts, Dawn. I am currently located in Los Angeles and I think I'm pretty well versed in the horror genre, 4 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:35,360 especially those 80s classics. A quick fun fact about me? I have a very extensive crystal collection. 5 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:43,920 Hello, I'm Amy. I'm from Kentucky and my area of expertise for this podcast is paranormal. A few fun facts about me. 6 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:50,240 I'm an empath, I collect old dolls and you know, I've never flown on an airplane. Can you believe that? 7 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,920 Now Dawn and I are also obsessed with true crime, so here we are. Talk Gruesome To Me. 8 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,960 We want to put out a special disclaimer for this episode. This episode features Crystina Page, 9 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:09,520 whose son David is one of the many victims of the Return to Nature Funeral Home. With the seriousness of this case, 10 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:16,240 we did this episode a little bit different. We gave Crystina the opportunity to have the floor to tell her story. 11 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:23,040 Now be advised this episode does contain graphic language and descriptions, so listener discretion is advised. 12 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:32,000 Hello, we have a very special guest today that we've been excited about for several weeks now since her episode aired. 13 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:40,960 This is going to be a more serious episode. It could get very graphic, so if you have kids and you don't want them listening to something like that, 14 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:47,920 you may want to listen to this without them. These are just our opinions as always. We always just kind of want to give that disclaimer. 15 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:55,760 We are going to be discussing the Curious Case of the Funeral Home of Horrors and you can find this on Max. 16 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:06,480 It is season one, and it is episode four. It's covering Return to Nature Funeral Home, which was specifically in Penrose, 17 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Colorado. They also had a location in Colorado Springs. 18 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:19,600 John and Carie Halford were the owners of the funeral home that we'll be discussing and I want to introduce Crystina, 19 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:28,000 who's our guest. She was on the episode. I saw it. I fell in love with her immediately and I reached out to her and said, 20 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:36,000 'will you do our podcast?' And here she is. So can you introduce yourself and where people can find you on your socials? 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,640 Yes, we couldn't be more than happy to have you on here. We're super excited. 22 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:46,480 Thank you guys. I'm really honored to be here and to be able to share a little bit of our story. 23 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:56,880 My name is Crystina Page and my son died September 29th of 2019 in Monument, Colorado, just north of Colorado Springs. 24 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:03,040 And he subsequently went to Return to Nature as one of their clients. 25 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:12,000 We have now founded a nonprofit to build an infrastructure of support for the victims of Colorado's death care industry. 26 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:21,280 And that's called Colorado Remembers. So you can find us online at callradarremembers.org or on Facebook under the same name. 27 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:28,000 We're also working on doing our own YouTube and podcasts right now as well. So that'll be coming in the next couple weeks. 28 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,600 I'm so excited that you're going to do a podcast. I think that's a really good idea. 29 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:32,320 Thank you, me too. 30 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,080 To keep the word going. 31 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:40,400 Yeah, we really want to get everybody's stories out. As you guys know, the loudest person in any group 32 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:49,360 kind of becomes representative of that group. And we don't want that in this case. We don't want any one person's story to be 33 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:56,080 the focus of this case. But there's a lot of people out there who haven't felt comfortable sharing their story yet. 34 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:01,040 So this is going to give those people an opportunity to be able to do that. And kind of a more 35 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,760 private setting if that makes sense, because by doing the podcast, we can do it without video. 36 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:12,560 We can cloak people's voices and you know, things like that to allow some of those people to share their stories. 37 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,600 So this is a huge step for us. We're excited. We'll be good. 38 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,840 Yeah. I will be listening. 39 00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:25,200 By doing that, maybe some more people will feel more confident just like you, coming out. 40 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,480 Yeah, I hope so. 41 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:33,280 One of the things about the show that I did like was they allowed each of you to share a little bit about 42 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:41,360 the victim. Your son, Angelika was able to talk about Shanelle and Heather was able to talk about Zach. 43 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:50,000 So do you want to just tell us a little bit about David and just him as a kid, kind of highlight 44 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,640 amazing things about him for everybody? 45 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,800 David was an amazing kiddo. 46 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:04,320 He struggled for many, many years with mental health issues and was trying to, as he got a little bit 47 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:12,080 older, navigate some of those systems that were sent to help him. And he didn't manage that real well. 48 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:19,360 So, it's hard for me to see him as the young man who was killed in the manner he was. 49 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:28,640 Because growing up, he was just so goofy and so fun-loving. And as many children with autism, 50 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:35,200 he was hyper-focused on a few different subjects. He loved fishing, he loved wolves. 51 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:41,440 We actually bought 15 acres of glam down in the San Luis Valley in Colorado so that we could do 52 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:48,960 a wildlife refuge for him. His goal was to open up a wildlife refuge down in the valley and live there, 53 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,280 so that all the animals could play together at peace without eating each other. 54 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:58,960 He was just convinced we were going to do that. Super, super intelligent. 55 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,440 Unfortunately, sometimes that got him in trouble. He was usually the smartest guy in the room 56 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:13,040 and also had no filter. So he told everybody that. He was amazing. He grew up in Florida with us 57 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:18,160 and then in Kansas City for a while, and back to Florida. H finally made it back here to 58 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,560 Colorado with us in 2015. And unfortunately, he was killed four years later. So we had a very short 59 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:30,720 time with him here and at that time, he was still trying to navigate that system. The day that he 60 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:38,720 died, he had just found out that his son was stillborn and that sent him into mental health crisis. 61 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:44,800 And unfortunately, he didn't know how to handle that and neither did the officers who showed up 62 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:54,800 to assist. So this case has really been a second stage of retraumatization for our family 63 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,080 and for those who loved him, and for all the other families who were going through this. 64 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,360 I know I feel like, and I think I told you this previously, that we could do a whole separate 65 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,320 episode on the manner in which he was killed and mental health issues and all of that. 66 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:16,560 It's really been a hard fight because, you know, there's so much societal stigma about how he died. 67 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:27,440 And then now this case, as you'll hear, has so many layers and complexities that it really is 68 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:34,080 another very stigmatized situation that people don't necessarily want to look into. 69 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,920 It's part of the reason I'm really glad that you guys have asked to do this with us. You know, death in 70 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:45,840 itself is so taboo, but then when you add some of these layers to it, it becomes even more so somehow. 71 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:52,240 And people tend to either watch the car wreck as they're going by, or shy away from it completely, 72 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,040 because they don't want to hear about it. That is completely accurate. 73 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:04,320 And we just did an episode last week where we spoke pretty deeply about death. 74 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:10,480 So, you know, we're definitely respectful, but we want to talk about these kinds of things. 75 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:16,640 They need to be talked about. Yeah. Nobody should ever have to go through something like this. 76 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Right. Do you want to talk more about how Return to Nature specifically was saying that they're 77 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:31,600 eco-friendly? What did that mean? And is that why you picked that place for his services? 78 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:38,800 Actually, I didn't have the opportunity to pick Return to Nature. I'm not exactly sure how Return 79 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:47,040 to Nature got involved in our case, but after David died, I asked if I could identify him, identify 80 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:56,240 his body. And I was told that his skull had been removed so that they could do toxicology on his brain. 81 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:03,280 And that because of that, his face wouldn't be what, wouldn't look normal and that it would be super 82 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:09,360 traumatizing for me. And I said, 'No, what's going to be super traumatizing to me is not being able to say goodbye.' 83 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:15,680 They told me that it would be at my cost for them to fix his face so that he would be viewable, 84 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:21,840 and that it would be about $8,000. And I told them that I didn't have the money and that if they 85 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:28,720 gave me a couple days, let me try to figure it out. Can you guys do payment plans? They said they 86 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,840 would get back to me. A couple days later, they said, 'Let's see what we can do. We might be able to 87 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,280 let you identify him.' And when I called back, I was told that he had already been cremated. 88 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:48,480 So the paperwork that I signed, I actually signed after David was in their custody, 89 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:56,320 but they asked me to backdate it. So, that should have been my first red flag. But, for most of our families, 90 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:02,480 I think the eco-friendly aspect was definitely a selling point. They promised to 91 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:10,560 grow trees, plant trees in our loved ones' names. So for me, that was not a selling point because I had 92 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:18,320 already been sold, but it was definitely a comfort to me that I would be able to go up into the mountains. 93 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:25,840 And I had this image in my head of having a little GPS tag nailed to the tree that would tell me which 94 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,640 one was for my son, and I would go up there and have a picnic with the puppies and honor my child. 95 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:37,280 They were also one of the most affordable places in the area. So that was a big selling point for a 96 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:43,920 lot of us also. But, they definitely pushed the green revolution for sure. Did any of the trees 97 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,520 actually happen for anyone that you know of? Not that we know of. No. About a year after his death, 98 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,800 I did call back to the funeral home and ask them, "Where did you plant his tree? I'd like to know where it is. 99 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:00,880 I want to go visit." And I was told then that they plant a tree for each person, but that they don't 100 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:07,680 keep track of which ones which. And now we know that as far as we've heard, there were never any trees. 101 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:13,520 Right. Which would make sense? Of course, there wasn't any trees. One, and we expect them to follow 102 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,640 through with anything. Right. And then do you want to talk about as much as you want to share 103 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:28,000 what happened to him after he was sent to the funeral home and how he was found and all of that? 104 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,920 So, we don't get a lot of information. A lot of it has come from each of us sharing our own 105 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,040 personal stories with each other, so that we can kind of build on that and figure it out for ourselves. 106 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:49,760 What I do know was that my son was dumped out of his body bag and laid naked in the corner of an 107 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:57,680 inoperable fridge with dozens of other bodies laying on top of him. I was told directly by the FBI 108 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:05,760 during my notification call that he was exposed when he was found and I have his clothing that he 109 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:13,920 was wearing when he died. So I put together the idea that he was naked and exposed. That's not 110 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:19,360 necessarily the condition that all the bodies were found. We did see some pretty graphic photos in 111 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:27,120 court. Many of the bodies were in body bags and not openly exposed. But I do know that my son was 112 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:33,920 in what we now call room L, which was a refrigerator inside of room K. There were three 113 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:40,160 fridgerators on site, and to our knowledge none of those were working. Do you think they were ever 114 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:46,880 working? That was going to be my question. I don't. I've personally seen messages that John sent 115 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:55,280 to a girlfriend of his in May of 19 that said that the compressor had gone out on the fridge 116 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:02,400 and that he had bodies laying around like it was Jonestown. And of course, this is several months before 117 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:11,200 the crime timeline starts for this case, which is officially September 15th of 19. But again in May 118 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,480 of 19, he was sending messages to his friends saying that the compressor was out on the fridge. 119 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:26,880 Is the count is it holding at 191 bodies where we believe so? Yeah. We were at number 190 120 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:33,840 but then kind of out of nowhere in the state case, they started talking about 191 and we're not exactly 121 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,800 sure where that extra body came from. But our understanding is that there's a total of 191, 122 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:48,400 188 of which have been identified. So there's still 3 bodies that were found that have not been 123 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:56,560 given identities yet. And outside of the refrigerator and the structure and people who were found there 124 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:04,400 in the show, do you want to talk about how other people were found, like Angelika thinks she has 125 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:11,360 cement? Well she doesn't think, she knows she has cement and the screw. Heather has someone else, 126 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:17,120 because there's metal in her ashes and her son never had that type of orthopedic surgery. 127 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:24,720 We have coffins that have been brought up and have the wrong bodies in them. Yeah. So one of the 128 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:31,520 things that we really want our community to understand is that there were not 191 victims. 129 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:38,640 John and Carrie had issued death certificates for I believe the number is 1,178 people 130 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:49,600 and only 191 of those have been found. So that leaves almost 1,000 people that have not been 131 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:58,720 located. We still have 1,000 people that we don't know where they are, if they were 132 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:07,920 taken care of properly, or that's correct. That's insane. We have a side from just those 191 that were 133 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:19,040 found. We have I believe, it's 987 that have not been located. Now what that means is good news. 134 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,680 Is that, that may mean that there's 1,000 people who were properly handled. However, 135 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:31,120 there's other things that have gone on in the case that lead us to believe that that couldn't 136 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,280 possibly be the case, and that at least a portion of those people were not handled properly. 137 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:45,760 When you look at some of these people like Angel and Heather and so many more who have not had 138 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,920 their loved ones found in the building. Those people are left to wonder, what really did happen to 139 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:58,320 their loved ones. Some of them have some, some of them have cremated remains. The problem is though 140 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:07,200 that we know that the funeral home records are clearly trash, but also the crematory records are 141 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:14,880 not accurate. There were a handful of people that we know of whose bodies were found in the building, 142 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:22,320 but who the crematory had record of properly cremating, and those two things are very exclusive of 143 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,280 each other. That leads us to believe that we can't trust any of the crematory records. 144 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:33,600 Right. Yeah. The worst part those people are never going to know probably. Right. Carolyn, 145 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:40,880 I jokingly say sometimes, and this sounds awful, but we sometimes say that we're the lucky ones 146 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:47,760 as awful as it is that our loved ones were found in the building. I now know where my son is. 147 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:55,360 There are so many more who go to bed every night wondering where their dead child is. 148 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:02,400 Wondering where their husbands are. Wondering where their mothers are. And the cremated remains 149 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:08,080 can't be tested for DNA because the cremation process destroys the DNA and the RNA. 150 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,160 There's nothing that we can do, even if they still have that urn that they were given by Return to 151 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:21,920 Nature 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago. There's still no way for us to tell if that's their loved one 152 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:28,640 or not. In fact, I refer to grandma Fido sometimes. She is the one that I carried for 4 years 153 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:35,680 thinking it was my son, and they've been confirmed to be cremated remains. My timeline is a lot shorter 154 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:43,520 because David died so soon on and I received the cremated remains back in, and her in October of 19. 155 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:51,280 So my timeline of who this could be is much shorter. But the people later down the line whose loved 156 00:17:51,280 --> 00:18:01,120 ones died, let's say in July of 23, they have 4 years worth of who could this be. Talking about 157 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:06,240 the remains that you had on the show you said, "Oh, I've been wearing this for 4 years." And when we 158 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:13,600 spoke a month ago or so, you had said, 'Or I had said to you, I think it's so sweet that you wear those 159 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:20,160 even though you know it's not your son.’  But then you said, and this was such a good point, 160 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,360 'well, what if it's a horrible person? What if this is a serial killer? And I'm wearing this around' 161 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:32,160 and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that aspect." Yeah, it's I think for me, I feel like 162 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,880 I have a duty to honor that person no matter who they are or how they died, because their family 163 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:47,440 isn't able to. Whoever it is that I'm carrying, their family has been carrying something else, right? 164 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:54,560 They thinking that what they had was their loved one. Or in some cases, they didn't get 165 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:03,600 anything back. We've now talked to two women who are two possibilities. One of them, 166 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:12,480 her best friend was a client of Return to Nature and their family never received cremation remains 167 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:21,760 back. Another one passed in April of 2019, and it took until June before they got cremation remains 168 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:28,320 back. And that raised some red flags for them, because how long does it take to do the cremation? 169 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:34,240 So that's just two examples. You know, I don't know if either one of those people are the one that 170 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:41,280 I'm carrying. But if it is now that I, especially since I know a little bit about each of those people, 171 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:49,680 it I feel like is kind of my duty to honor that person in the same way that their family would have. 172 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:58,960 The problem is that when you throw in religion and social norms and belief, there's no way 173 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,400 without me knowing who I'm carrying to properly honor the person in the way that their family would have, 174 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:10,800 or in the way that they would have wanted to be honored. So now we have almost a 1,000 people 175 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:18,880 who are in that same position of walking around not knowing if who they're carrying is their 176 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:26,000 loved one or another loved one from another family. And if they are, how do we honor that person? 177 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,280 How do we lay them to rest? Where do we spread them? Where do we take them? What do we do with it? 178 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:37,440 You know, we've had many of our Zoom calls talking about that. What do we do with the cremated remains 179 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:44,480 if we don't know who that person is? Or, even if we do know that that person isn't our loved one, 180 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:51,440 what do we do with it now? That's kind of the big push behind Colorado Remembers. We have the two 181 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:59,040 sides of it. One building that emotional and psychological, if you will, support network so that we can 182 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,800 all get through this together. The other part of our mission is to build a memorial park so that we 183 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:12,080 have somewhere that all of us can go to spread who it is that we have, hoping that if all of us do 184 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:19,360 that then we can each go visit our loved one. There's so many special things that have come out of 185 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:25,840 this I think for all of you. One is that you all have been able to bond and you have these Zoom calls 186 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:33,360 every week, once or twice just to talk this through. And, I also think it's so special the way that you 187 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:39,360 do carry those ashes. And maybe that doesn't seem like a big thing to you, but you know, you've got 188 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:46,560 a lot to deal with in the fact that you still consider this person. I think is amazing and just speaks 189 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:53,840 to you as a person. This shows your character. Thank you. To be honest with you, that aspect has 190 00:21:53,840 --> 00:22:04,560 almost become as heavy if you will as what actually happened to my child. Because now in this case 191 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:14,480 John and Carrie stole the very last actions any of us took for our left ones. Something so sacred. 192 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:20,720 It's almost like they ripped that from us and then just scattered it amongst us and made it each of 193 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:27,440 our responsibilities. I think because I know where my son is, it gives me a little bit of ability to 194 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:34,240 heal through that, but not knowing who I'm carrying is something that I'll never be able to resolve. 195 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:43,840 That's so small compared to the people who are still missing their loved ones and don't know 196 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:50,000 if who they're carrying is theirs. And I love we can talk about this later. I 197 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:59,280 the park idea is brilliant and you know we talked about it a month ago in your plan for that, and we 198 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:05,200 definitely want to cover that at the end so that people can help you achieve that goal. Great. 199 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:13,840 But whoever came up with that is it's such a good idea, and like so respectful to everybody 200 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:19,520 involved whether it's the people that are still here dealing with this or whether it's the people who 201 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:25,760 were mistreated at the funeral home. So, we'll give out all that information at the end. 202 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:32,560 Amazing idea. And I was wondering are the police you may not build an answer to this, but are they still 203 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:38,400 actively investigating the other individuals that were not sure where they are? 204 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:45,520 No. Our understanding is that there really hasn't been investigation into that. 205 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:54,240 We say no body, no crime. That's really how it feels in this case. In fact, we have families who 206 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:02,960 did burials who asked at one point if they could help do exhumations so that they could verify 207 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:09,360 who was in the gravesite, because we do know that they misbeared some people. We don't know what 208 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:16,080 the total number is, but in court we viewed photographs of a woman who had been buried in 209 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:24,720 somebody else's intended grave. And when some of our friends asked for the exhumations, 210 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,200 we were told that without a body, they will not do the exhumation. So for example, 211 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:35,680 there was a gentleman found who was an honorably discharged military funeral to my understanding, 212 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:42,640 when they called to notify the family. The wife said, no, no, no, he can't possibly be there in 213 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:49,520 the building. We did an honorable burial for him out at the National Cemetery, 21 gun salute, 214 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:56,160 all of his friends. This just can't be. And when they dug up his intended gravesite, they found 215 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:04,720 the body of a woman who had been wrapped in duct tape. So if there was a situation like that where a 216 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,840 body is found that supposed to be in Joe's grave, they would go dig up Joe's gravesite to see who 217 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:22,240 actually is there. But if Mary died, and Mary was buried and Mary's body isn't found, then the 218 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:28,400 investigative agencies are just assuming that Mary is in her grave site. I have a question. The 219 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:37,680 majority of the ones say, like your son who's found in a refrigerator seems like maybe a monetary 220 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:45,440 thing they were trying to not cremate to just pocket the money and not do anything. But what do you 221 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,520 think would be the reasoning for burying the wrong people, because that doesn't make them 222 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:57,680 any money? Like, are they just sick? You're still spending money. I don't think this was a monetary 223 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:06,080 motive at all to be honest with you. I saw photographs in court that led me to believe that this 224 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:13,840 wasn't monetary. The trade value of a cremation is between 2 and 3 hundred dollars. So what 225 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,800 that means is they may charge me 6 hundred dollars at Return to Nature, but then Return to Nature 226 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:27,360 is only charged 2 or 3 hundred dollars by Wilbert or Roselon or the other crematory. So it's 227 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:33,280 only a couple hundred dollars out of their pocket. If you add all of that up, it was only 52 228 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:39,920 or 56 thousand dollars that it would have cost for them to do all of the cremations. And that 229 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:46,800 includes the ones that were supposed to have been buried. Okay, so maximum value if you assume that 230 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,800 each one was 3 hundred not now that were 2. It's only 52 or 56 thousand. The 231 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,840 mitigation efforts that they had to go through, I believe would have been far greater than 232 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:09,440 50 thousand. They had tarps, bug bombs, air fresheners, fans, buckets, all sorts of things to try 233 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:15,520 to mitigate the damage. All of those things cost them money. So I do not believe that this was a 234 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:23,600 financial and motivated crime at all, which is horrifying because we don't know what the motive was. 235 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:33,040 You know, in similar cases here in Colorado, there were cases where they sold them off for medical 236 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:40,160 science. There have been cases where there were religious cultish type aspects to the case. 237 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:46,080 We don't see any of that in our case. One of the first things that I asked the investigators 238 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:54,160 were, was there abuse? We know that this is an abuse of corpse charge. But was there any outright 239 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:03,200 abuse? Aside from the neglect of the bodies just being there, right? Which is horrible enough. But I 240 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:11,200 wanted to know, were each one of their left ears cut off, were some of the bodies dissected for 241 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:18,960 science or medical purposes? Was there a cross on each forehead? Was there something that John and 242 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:26,960 Carie were doing that made sense in any of it? Not made it better, but made sense, right? If you saw 243 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:34,320 on the news, the 191 bodies were found and that every one of them was missing their left ear, or every 244 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:41,680 one of them had a cross cut in their cheek, or every one of them had scalpel marks, or something like 245 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,760 that, you could make sense of it. You can wrap your brain around it. You wouldn't think it was any 246 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,920 better, but you could at least understand why they did what they did. But in this case, from what we 247 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:59,360 understand, there were no signs of anything like that happening. They were just there. And to me, 248 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:08,800 that's almost worse in the sense that we don't know why, we don't know what their intentions were. 249 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,760 And it doesn't seem like there's any sense to it. It doesn't seem like there's any rhyme or reason 250 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:23,120 behind it. And it's a weirder too because from what the show said, he grew up in a family of people 251 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:33,200 who worked in funeral homes. So it just is an extra why what's happening here was that how his parents 252 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,000 were treated like, is this something that, you know, maybe this goes back and I doubt it, but who 253 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:45,280 knows at this point? Could you tell us what Colorado, what they consider abusive of corpse since you 254 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:52,400 just said that? My understanding of the charge itself is that it's anything that would outrage 255 00:29:52,400 --> 00:30:00,320 family sensibilities. So what that means is, let's say all else told, I wanted to be burnt on a 256 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:07,840 fire, right? I want everybody to put me in the backyard swimming pool and shoot flaming arrows at me and 257 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,760 go up and smoke. That wouldn't be there, maybe other laws that are violated, but that would not be 258 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,200 abusive of corpse because this is what I want. This is what the family agreed to. And in this 259 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:27,200 fake story, this is all legal, everything's good. However, if the funeral home knew that I wanted to 260 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,000 be cremated and they put me in their backyard pool and shot flaming arrows at me, that would be 261 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,600 abusive of corpse, because now my family is pissed. And that's kind of a rough explanation of it, 262 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:44,080 but abusive of corpse doesn't necessarily speak to how the bodies were handled as much as it speaks to 263 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:52,080 the fact that it wasn't handled in the way that the family and the dead intended. Okay, thanks. I think 264 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:58,400 we needed to just put that out there. So people, I kind of like how they look at it different there, 265 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:05,120 like it's not just the normal things when you think about abuse. It's just simply anything that 266 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:11,520 that person would not want done to their body. I like that. Now in Colorado, my understanding also 267 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,600 is the abuse of a corpse was intended to be a secondary crime. And this is part of the problems 268 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,920 that we've had with legislation here, and with the enforcement of penalties for abusive 269 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:31,840 of corpse. For example, it was intended to be, let's say there's a murder and then the murderer 270 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:39,040 drags the body down the street and causes further damage to the body after the murder. 271 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:45,680 Abuse of a corpse would come in as a secondary crime. Clearly the murder itself is the high crime 272 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:53,440 that should be the felony. The abuse of a corpse would come in as an exacerbating symptom, 273 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,680 if you will. It's an added chart. The problem with that is that these fools in Colorado continue 274 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,280 to make abusive of corpse their primary crimes, such as in Sonsat Mesa, Apollo, Return to Nature, 275 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:13,440 Kent, a few of these other crimes. And our system isn't set up to treat abusive of corpse as the 276 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:23,280 primary crime. So in Colorado, it's not even a victim right act eligible crime. For example, 277 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:30,000 if your house is burglated and somebody comes in, kicks in your door and holds you at gunpoint 278 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:37,200 and attempts to rape your wife, as a victim of that crime, your door is replaced. You might get 279 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,560 self-defense courses. You would certainly get therapy. Everything that you need to try to make 280 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:50,080 you whole again. Abuse of a corpse doesn't qualify for two reasons. One, nobody thought to put it 281 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:57,760 on the list of qualifying crimes. And two, our justice system looks at the dead as the victim. 282 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:05,680 So what that means for our families is that we don't get help. I hate that. We used, after my niece 283 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:12,400 was murdered, we used those services. I hate that you don't get help. So the families of the 191 284 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:21,680 were given a $2,500 check, and that was to cover mental health services and transportation back 285 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:28,000 and forth to sentencing to come share our victim impact statements. So, it's like 10 therapy sessions. 286 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,920 That's hardly anything. That doesn't go very far. Especially when you're trying to find a particular 287 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:41,360 type of therapist. I have a psychological background as well. I'm a crisis responder. I deal with 288 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:51,040 some crazy traumas. I have kind of made it my habit to help people who can't find help anywhere else. 289 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:58,720 Dragging people out of ditches and figuratively and literally and trying to get people the resources 290 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:07,680 that society isn't set up for. This whole case has been very much that. We were told by the FBI and by the 291 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:16,240 the victim specialist that we just needed some grief counseling. This is not grief. I am not grieving. 292 00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:25,120 Grieving is what we all did. 2, 3, 4, 5, almost 6 years ago now. When our loved ones were lost, 293 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:33,520 each of us went through that death process in a very different way. Depending on whether it was 294 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:45,840 100-year-old Aunt Zoah who didn't wake up one morning, or it was a child who was killed, or a husband 295 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:52,800 lost to cancer, or a daughter in a car accident. All of us went through our grieving processes and each 296 00:34:52,800 --> 00:35:01,040 of those looked very, very different for us at that time. Now we are being asked to relive 297 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:08,000 not just their death, but knowing that something worse than death happened after their death. 298 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:16,000 It's not grief. It's trauma. And it's not PTSD, because we're not post anything because many of us 299 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:22,400 don't know what happened. We don't know how it happened. We don't know why it happened. A 1,000 300 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:29,280 people don't know if it happened to them or not, or if they're just being traumatized by somebody 301 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:38,480 else's story, or if they're ignoring and hoping and their loved one was victimized. So there's all 302 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:47,280 these layers and complexities there that don't give us an avenue of healing, to have the very system 303 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:54,720 that is supposed to be helping us through this have such a misunderstanding of what we're going through 304 00:35:54,720 --> 00:36:00,240 has been retraumatizing for us. In fact over and over on our Zoom calls or on my crisis calls, 305 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:05,920 I hear victims saying I have been victimized by the system more than I've been victimized by 306 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,360 John and Carie. That's one of the things that we're trying to fix is being able to get some of 307 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,600 this legislation to address what this really is. This isn't a secondary crime and it's not worthy of 308 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:26,240 secondary status. What happened in John and Carie's possession is a very separate and distinct 309 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:32,640 crime from his homicide. The two are not related. The only reason they're related is because of the 310 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:40,320 chronology and because one had to happen for the other to take control. But these are very separate 311 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:48,960 incidents, and the system is trying to treat us as if the Hallferd case is just an extension of the 312 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:55,280 death itself and nothing could be farther from the truth. Except that many of us are going through 313 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,840 more trauma and more stigma in trying to ask our same communities to come around and support us 314 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,520 and not support just doesn't there. And this is when you need it the most. It is. Yeah. It is. 315 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:14,320 And but we can't even tell you what we need. I can't tell you now I could articulate it a little bit 316 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:21,040 better. But a year and a half ago when this case broke, I remember it was a week before Halloween 317 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:29,360 and I spent weeks calling every social services organization I could possibly find trying to get 318 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:35,680 help for our families, trying to get help for myself for gas money, to get here or help with a memorial 319 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:42,560 fund, or mental health services, or calling churches, and Colorado Springs and asking, 'hey, I'm coming 320 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:48,480 all the way from Ohio to come back and cremate my son. Can I park in your parking lot? I just need a 321 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,760 safe place to park where I won't get towed overnight.’  We couldn't find any help at all. In fact, we had so 322 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:59,280 many people hang up on us thinking that it was prank calls because it was around Halloween. You know, 323 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:06,480 98 was hanging up on us. So who do you go to? If you can't go to the resources that the community has 324 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:14,960 set up for worst case scenarios, where then do you go? And I think that's why we kind of leaned in 325 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:22,960 on each other, because each of us is going through our own private struggle and our own separate cases 326 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,800 in a sense. Nobody has any facts, and all of the information is being kept from us and things like 327 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,960 that. We're trying to figure out how to heal, but how do you heal from something if you don't know 328 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:39,120 what you're healing from? And if this isn't a worst case scenario, I don't know what they would consider 329 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:45,680 one to be. Yeah. And that's the whole thing as our society isn't set up to help us. In fact, I called 330 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:52,240 Travelers Aid. I remember hearing about them way back in the 80s and 90s. And I always knew, 331 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:57,760 for some reason, this stuck in my head. I don't know why, but I always knew that if somebody died and I 332 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,960 needed to get cross-country for the memorial, there was some agency out there that would help me with 333 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,720 some gas money or a train ticket. So I called them as one of my hundreds of places that I called. 334 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:14,480 And I remember the woman asking me, I was very careful about the words I used. And I said, I just 335 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:21,600 need to get out there for cremation and memorial. And she asked when he died. And this was the end of 336 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:30,080 October. And I said 'September 29th.' And she said 'of 2023', of course. And laughed. And I said, ‘no.' of 2019. 337 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,240 And she said, 'why wasn't he cremated then.' And I said, 'well, you'd really have to ask the funeral 338 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:41,280 home. He was supposed to be cremated. But his body was just found by the investigators in the funeral 339 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,560 home.' And she said, 'well, that's between you and the funeral home, ma'am, we don't get involved in 340 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:53,120 those things.' And I said, 'ma'am, with all due respect, I didn't change my mind. This is a crime. And it's 341 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:59,520 getting ready to be national news. And I am simply asking for help to get from Ohio cross-country 342 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:08,240 so that I can cremate my son again.' And she said, 'oh my god, you need Jesus.' And I said, 'fantastic, 343 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,800 will you please put him on the phone? Because nobody else will listen to me.' And she hung up on me. 344 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:21,200 And there were so many of those calls back to back to back that I was driving down interstate 70 coming 345 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:28,320 here and just calling from the time I got up on the road until people were out of the office for the 346 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:35,760 day. And we couldn't find a single person that would help. In fact, the FBI in Ohio, I had to meet with 347 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,880 them before I came out here. They threatened me with arrest, because I wouldn't give them the urn. 348 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:49,040 So, our conversation didn't go well. But, they ended up giving me, I think, a $10 subway gift certificate 349 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,520 and a $10 CVS gift certificate and a $20 visa card or something like that. 350 00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:01,600 So helpful. Months and months later, after I had come here and was already advocating, and already 351 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:07,760 kind of a thorn in their side and they realized I was settling in here to stay. I remember Alicia, 352 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:15,280 our victim specialist with the FBI telling me like, 'there's no help. What else do you want? Just get a 353 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:21,840 really good grief counselor.' And I was like, 'Alicia, you're not understanding. We're having people like 354 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:29,040 attempting suicide. We're having people have complete breakdowns. We need more help than you 355 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,840 pointing us to the yellow pages for a grief counselor.'  She goes, 'well, Crystina, we have already 356 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:40,640 helped you.' And I said, 'you have, what do you mean you've helped me?' And she said, 'well, we gave you 357 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:47,040 some gift cards.’ And I said, 'you gave me like $40 worth of gift cards. Thank you. I don't want to come 358 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:58,240 across as ungrateful, but $10 towards a subway meal isn't helping me not have nightmares of this case. 359 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:05,280 This is their second go round. The most of the investigation and prosecution team 360 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:12,240 worked the Sunset Mesa case also. And if you talk to those victims, they'll tell you the same, that 361 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:20,640 they didn't even get that $2,500. Nobody stepped up in any way for them. Nobody gave them counseling. 362 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:26,480 Nobody wrapped their arms around them and said, it'll be okay. We don't know how, but we're going to 363 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:32,240 walk through this with you. Instead, they continued to lie to them and hide information and do the same 364 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:40,240 thing that they have to us. So in many ways, the system and the community have re-victimized us in 365 00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:46,240 ways that we didn't even know were possible on top of a crime that so atrocious that nobody knows 366 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:52,640 how to help us or how to tell us to get help. It's been a nightmare from start to finish.' 367 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,560 It's almost like they treated you like you put yourself in that own in your own situation. 368 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:04,640 You know, it's felt like that. In a lot of ways, you know, I understand that there's 369 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:12,560 the integrity of the case has to be paramount, right? Me wanting answers about my son or about your 370 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:20,000 great grandmother or about the general conditions of the building has to come second to the case and 371 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:28,480 the prosecution. And also the unintentional traumatization of people who would see that information 372 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:35,360 unwillingly, right? But there's so much information that we don't know. There's so much that they 373 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:41,680 have flat out lied to us about, and told us that we were crazy for thinking this and then later we found 374 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:46,560 out evidence that it really did happen that way. Things like that. That dynamic in this case, 375 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:56,560 specifically with the victim specialist, has been so harmful that many of the crisis calls that I take 376 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:02,800 aren't about what the person is dealing with knowing the conditions. It's what the person is 377 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:08,320 dealing with not knowing and not understanding and feeling like they've been lied to and not cared for 378 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:16,640 by their community. Do you feel, and this is very specific just to you, do you almost feel like this 379 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:21,920 second set of dealing with this was worse than the actual death of your son? 380 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:33,760 I don't know. It's very different. It is. And I think about that a lot. We try very hard as 381 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:43,120 co-victims, if you will, not to compare each other's grief, because my level 10 trauma could be your 382 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:50,080 level 1 trauma. So, we try to be very careful about that, but I play with that a lot in my own head 383 00:44:50,080 --> 00:45:00,080 about the emotional and mental health impact of my son's death and then his after death, if you will. 384 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:09,760 And I don't know which is worse. I think in the first, in the homicide, I felt very alone for 385 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:19,040 about 6 months. And in March of 2020, about 6 months after he died, a woman named Donna reached out 386 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:26,720 to me, Donna Chessessi. And her son, Jonathan Victor, had been killed by police. And she reached out 387 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:32,240 to me and she said, 'I just want you to know that you're not alone.' And I was like, 'what do you mean I'm not 388 00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:37,600 alone? This doesn't happen except for like the two or three times a year we might see on the news.' 389 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:44,320 And she was like, 'oh honey, you're about to go through the worst thing you've ever imagined. 390 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:50,400 And you're not going to have support. And everybody is going to think that you're just a horrible 391 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:57,120 person because of the way your son died. So like, strap in for the ride girl.' At first, I kind of like 392 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:04,640 waved her off. Like, maybe that's her experience. But I found over the next 4 years. And I say 4 393 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:10,560 because then the FBI called and that twisted it on its head. But that next 4 years was very much a 394 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:18,080 fight, even in my own community, trying to get anybody to talk to me about what had happened was a 395 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:27,280 fight. I've wanted to of course talk to the SWAT members who took my son's life. That wasn't able to 396 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:35,440 happen until very recently. And only as a result of this case, no politicians except for  Cohen 397 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:43,040 have ever reached out to me to see how this impacted the community or my life. None of the 398 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:51,440 city representatives, the mayor, the governor, nobody reached out and said, 'I'm so sorry that your son 399 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:59,280 died this way. What is your take on it?' In fact, I don't hold the SWAT team members responsible for my son's 400 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,560 death, because they were acting on information that they had when they arrived. And I can only judge 401 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:10,880 them based on what they knew at the time. However, the man who set him up, and I will say that to the day I 402 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:19,040 die, my son was absolutely set up by an officer knowing that my son was in mental health crisis, 403 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,800 knowing that I was a crisis responder and that I was on scene at his invitation. And instead, 404 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:31,440 he reported that my son was homicidal and that he had taken a hostage, both of which he knew not to 405 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:37,760 be true. But that's the information SWAT had when they arrived. The shooting was considered justified 406 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:43,920 by the 4th court district 407 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,360 justified, mostly because of what had happened, because when you're fighting a big system, the big 408 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:55,440 system usually wins. But I also expected there to be a little bit further investigation. And there 409 00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:03,920 wasn't any. My understanding is that Rob Stewart, who is the man who set my son up, was interviewed 410 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,360 once for about 7 minutes and I have transcript of that interview. But there was no further digging 411 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:16,320 into what happened. So the next 4 years was very much my fight for justice as a whole. I knew I 412 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:23,200 wasn't going to get justice for my son. It was kind of a foregone conclusion. Qualified immunity in 413 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:29,680 our country is very difficult to get around. But what we did was in May, I believe, of 2020, we were 414 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:35,520 able to strip qualified immunity from Colorado. So we were able to make some changes here for that. 415 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,880 So for the next couple years, I was nomadic and traveled the country, meeting with other victims 416 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:49,200 of police homicide and violence, community violence also. Trying to build bridges in our community 417 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:54,560 to figure out how can we address the mental health issues, so that there's a qualified 418 00:48:54,560 --> 00:49:00,560 responder showing up, rather than somebody who's only been trained with his gun. So when the phone 419 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:08,960 rang on October 24th of 23, the caller ID that popped up said, "F these guys no therapy." 420 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,880 I had actually put it, I was trying to put it as a note in my contact and instead renamed 421 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:22,320 4th district victims assistance as that. So it popped up, and I answered the phone, 422 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:28,960 "What do you want? You're 4 years late." And the lady was like, "What do you mean? I'm calling 423 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,320 for Crystina." And I said, "Yes, unless you're calling to offer me therapy, I don't want to hear 424 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,200 anything from you." And what had happened was that when David died, they had determined that I 425 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:46,880 wasn't a victim. So I didn't qualify for therapy, similarly to this case, under that victim right act. 426 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:54,000 In this situation, it almost feels like for me personally, that I've been thrown back into that 427 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:02,640 same mess and I've wondered, maybe I meant to try to clean this up the second time, because I wasn't 428 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:10,080 able to advocate properly the first time. You know, there's these same glaring defects in our system 429 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:17,360 in both of these cases for my son. There's not the type of mental health support that our victims 430 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:24,560 truly need. And whether you considered me a victim in my son's homicide or not, I think that all of us 431 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:33,040 would agree that the woman living next door to you who just witnessed her son being killed by police 432 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:40,880 should have therapy whether she's considered a victim or not, simply for the safety and well-being 433 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:48,960 of the community if nothing else. How do I have a positive contribution to my community or to my city 434 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:58,720 if my brain is so messed up from the homicide and that's not addressed. So in that sense, this feels 435 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:11,760 like groundhog day because I'm still fighting the same system to get something, that in my opinion 436 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:19,280 should just be normal. And I know that that's not the reality of the situation, but I believe that if 437 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:28,640 somebody goes through a 100 resources begging for help, there should be some kind of a response 438 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:36,240 from the community that says, let's find the person that's right for this situation. Let's get 439 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:43,840 you the help that you need. Let's address what you're going through. Maybe not because it's required, 440 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,960 but maybe because we see another human in our neighborhood, in our city, in our community, 441 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:59,040 struggling and that person's mental health issues could cost our community more than a few therapy 442 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:06,080 sessions. Maybe we throw together a voluntary peer counseling group. Maybe we set them up with 443 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:12,000 a Zoom calls from some lady in Michigan that knows what she's talking about. I don't know. I don't 444 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:18,800 know what that response should be, but I know that there should be a response there. And for the 445 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:24,720 Hallford case with Return to Nature, again, we don't have a 191 victims. 446 00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:31,920 We have a 191 dead that have been identified. The victims in this case are every 447 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:38,320 single person, who loved my son and wakes up every day less functional than they were before they 448 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:47,360 knew he wasn't cremated. That means myself, my husband, my mother who lived with him when he died, 449 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:56,000 both of my other children, my stepchildren, his stepfather, friends, other family, cousins, 450 00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:03,360 how do we count how many people were affected by my son's death or his subsequent processing? 451 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:12,080 So let's say each dead has 5 people who were affected by this to the degree that they need 452 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:18,160 some kind of a response. Let's pretend in my son's case it's his 2 parents, his grandmother, 453 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:23,200 his brother, and his sister. You now have 5 people, times a 191. That's almost 454 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:29,200 1,000 people who were affected and that's only the ones who have been identified. Then you have 455 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,160 a 1,000 missing. So let's say there's 5 people who loved each one of those. That's another 456 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:40,080 5,000 people. That means we're looking at 6,000 people in this case who are affected to 457 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,080 such a degree that they're having nightmares, that they're waking up in the morning and may not be 458 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:50,160 able to go to work, that they may not be able to sleep. When they do sleep, it's awful sleep. They 459 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:57,040 may lose their jobs, lose their marriages. We have so many people affected by this case and to have 460 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:06,240 the system as a whole say here's $2,500 for some therapy, but that's only 461 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:11,920 For the 191, and it's only 1 check per dead. So that means in my case for example, 462 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:18,880 my mother gets $500 worth of therapy, my children and my husband and I each get 463 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,600 $500 worth of therapy, and then all the money's gone. We don't get to travel back to 464 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:30,720 court to be able to share our impact statements. How do you make that okay? How do you pretend that 465 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:38,880 that's okay as a response? Again, I'm extremely grateful that we were given that help at all, 466 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:44,080 but we had to fight for that help, and it turned out that the person who was in charge of cutting 467 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:52,400 those checks used to own the place that the Hallfords tried to buy before it fell out in a financial 468 00:54:52,400 --> 00:55:00,800 dealing and they bought Return to Nature. So the system revictimized us by having a funeral director 469 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:05,360 that had direct financial dealings with the Hallfords being the one who was supposed to be cutting 470 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:11,840 our checks, and that didn't happen for almost 4 months when we were finally able to get him fired, 471 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:19,280 replaced and another woman into gear who was able to get those things to happen. But, we have literally 472 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,960 had to fight tooth and nail every step of the way and we still don't have the information or the 473 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:31,200 help that we should have. And as strong as you clearly are, all of this fighting is to your own 474 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:37,440 detriment of your own mental health. As you can tell, this episode is just getting started. 475 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,320 Tune back in next Tuesday to hear the rest of this 2-parter. There is no way we could have made 476 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:55,280 this just 1 episode and actually it deserves a lot more. See you next week!