1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,400 Welcome back. This is part 2 of our Return to Nature episode. If you missed part 1, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,920 you might want to go listen to it right now. This episode starts where last week's episode ends. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:16,200 You'll also notice that the audio is not as we would like for these 2 episodes. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:22,640 We did have a few recording obstacles, but I promise you it is definitely still worth a listen. 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:28,760 Now back to where we left off last week. Here's the rest of Crystina's story. Wait, I do want to add. 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:34,440 This episode does contain graphic language and descriptions, so listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:44,040 We have literally had to fight tooth and nail every step of the way, and we still don't have the information or the help that we should have. 8 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Well, and as strong as you clearly are, all of this fighting is to your own detriment of your own mental health. 9 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,840 It is. You know, it's... 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:01:02,840 You would like to think that when something awful happens, people come around you and hug you and kind of hold you up and say, 11 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,040 "Let's do this, this, and this to help make it better." 12 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:12,040 And the system responds in kind, and everybody is kind of on the same page about which direction we're headed. 13 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:19,840 And in this case, I hear over and over and over again, people just don't have the support that they need through this, 14 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,040 partially because of that whole systematic stuff that's going on. 15 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:32,440 And also because this case is so taboo, it's very difficult for people to talk about, and it's even more difficult for people to know how to support. 16 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:42,840 You know, like, what do you do if I tell you, "Oh my God, this just happened. How do you, as a friend, know what to say to make it better?" 17 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:49,440 Because you've never heard of anything like this before, so you don't know how to reply in support. 18 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:58,040 So in most cases, our families are very much just kind of floundering out here without any of that support or comfort that we need. 19 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:04,440 It's uncomfortable in a normal death and people don't know what to say and how to support, and then you throw all of this in. 20 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:13,640 But I think in most cases, you know, people know how to respond to death itself, even if they don't know what to say about your death. 21 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:25,840 For example, in my son's case, when I would say, "My son just died." People would, you know, wrap their arms around me, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Do you have any other children?" 22 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,840 "Oh, well then it's okay." You know, all of that garbage that, you know, kind of follows. 23 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:39,840 But when I would tell people how he died, it was a very different situation, right? It's nobody brought me Lasagna. 24 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:47,040 There was no meal train for my family. In fact, his go-fundme raised all of $5 for his memorial fund to burial. 25 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:54,040 But, you get through that and you move forward and it's okay, because you still know your son's at rest. 26 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,440 That was one of the things that really brought me comfort after his death. 27 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:03,240 If there was anything that could comfort me, was that I knew my son had been very tormented during his life. 28 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,540 He really, really struggled. 29 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:12,340 Now he's finally at peace. To have this pulled back up and find out that he's not at peace. 30 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:18,940 I can't imagine what my friends are thinking when they're trying to know how to respond. 31 00:03:18,940 --> 00:03:23,140 In fact, I've lost 90% of my friends within the last year and a half. 32 00:03:23,140 --> 00:03:29,140 Some of it  because people just don't know how to react. Some of it because every conversation I have goes back to this death. 33 00:03:29,140 --> 00:03:32,540 You know, this is the hot topic of my life. 34 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:38,140 So if somebody says, "Hey, how are you?" The response is, "Great! We just got it to go to trial." 35 00:03:38,140 --> 00:03:44,340 Or "horrible." We just found this out. It really very much goes back to this case. 36 00:03:44,340 --> 00:03:46,340 And people don't know how to react. 37 00:03:46,340 --> 00:03:52,540 I have one friend outside of this case that I know I can call and talk to about it. 38 00:03:52,540 --> 00:03:58,740 And that's it. And if it wasn't for Tanya, I don't know that I would have made it through the first couple months. 39 00:03:58,740 --> 00:04:04,140 In fact, when the FBI called and said, "We're calling about the Penrose Funeral Home case." 40 00:04:04,140 --> 00:04:07,340 I thought, "My kid wasn't at Penrose Funeral Home." 41 00:04:07,340 --> 00:04:10,340 So there was a lot of confusion in the beginning anyway for me. 42 00:04:10,340 --> 00:04:16,340 And then I started googling it and I immediately called Tanya and said, "They found..." 43 00:04:16,340 --> 00:04:20,140 At that time, I believe they thought it was 189 bodies. 44 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:27,940 I said, "They found these bodies in the funeral home." The FBI just called me, "I know they're not calling me to tell me that he's okay." 45 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:31,340 I know they're calling me. They had scheduled it for 6 o'clock that evening. 46 00:04:31,340 --> 00:04:34,540 I said, "I know they're calling me to tell me that they found him." 47 00:04:34,540 --> 00:04:39,540 I remember Tanya just saying, "I have no idea what to say. 48 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:43,140 I have no idea how to make this right. 49 00:04:43,140 --> 00:04:46,940 But I'm here. And if you think of something, let me know." 50 00:04:46,940 --> 00:04:50,940 And she still tells me that now. You know, a year and a half later, 51 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:53,940 she still hasn't figured out how to support me through this. 52 00:04:53,940 --> 00:04:57,140 I haven't figured out how to tell her to support me through this. 53 00:04:57,140 --> 00:05:01,340 But I know she does because she's there. 54 00:05:01,340 --> 00:05:07,340 And she's standing at my side watching me go through all of this and just letting me know, 55 00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:10,740 t's okay if you need to call and talk about the Yucky stuff. 56 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:15,740 If you need to call and cry, if you need to scream, if you need to laugh about something that's not funny, 57 00:05:15,740 --> 00:05:24,740 I'm here for you and to find an individual like that that will love me through this has been amazing. 58 00:05:24,740 --> 00:05:29,540 But I know there's a lot of people who don't have that. There should be more of that. 59 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:35,940 This should be something that I can stand in the middle of town square and say, 60 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:41,940 "This happened to me and people know how to support," or that there is an avenue of support. 61 00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:49,340 Instead, it's been opposite. They, November 8th, in fact, they did their first press conference. 62 00:05:49,340 --> 00:05:57,740 The feds, the FBI and the coroner all said on national news that we were getting all of the help that we needed. 63 00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:02,340 And we were getting emails from them saying, "I'm sorry, this isn't a qualified crime." 64 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:09,740 So what's happened is that we go to agency and say, "Hey, we need help in this situation." 65 00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:14,940 And they say, "Oh, we would, but we heard the FBI. They're helping everybody. 66 00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:17,540 Maybe you should get in touch with them to get the help." 67 00:06:17,540 --> 00:06:23,340 And it's just become very convoluted. That's been a very difficult part of this process, 68 00:06:23,340 --> 00:06:29,340 especially from people who didn't necessarily have trauma attached to the death itself. 69 00:06:29,340 --> 00:06:38,340 Because when their loved one passed, they had the support that our community knows how to give during a normal death. 70 00:06:38,340 --> 00:06:44,340 And now they're in the situation where they're thinking the same type of support will be here. 71 00:06:44,340 --> 00:06:49,740 And people are like, "Oh, God, rotting what? I don't want to hear about it." 72 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:52,340 Yeah, it's been extremely difficult for a lot of us. 73 00:06:52,340 --> 00:06:57,540 That part of it has been really almost as difficult as the crime itself. 74 00:06:57,540 --> 00:07:01,340 And I want to say just for anyone listening, 75 00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:05,340 Tanya's response to Crystina is so good. 76 00:07:05,340 --> 00:07:12,140 And if you're ever in that situation, just take that from this podcast and know how to handle that. 77 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:17,140 Because I am sure that felt perfect to you. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, 78 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:21,540 but just in general for people listening and wondering, 79 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:25,740 Okay, if something happens to someone I know, what do I say?" 80 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:30,740 I was thinking the exact same thing, that people that don't understand what to do? 81 00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:34,340 That's okay. Just simply say, "I don't understand, but I'm here." 82 00:07:34,340 --> 00:07:37,140 Yeah, I don't know what to do for you, but I'm willing. 83 00:07:37,140 --> 00:07:42,140 Yes. And, you know, it's funny because Tanya and I are long distance. 84 00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:46,140 So I don't get to see her nearly as often as I would love to. 85 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:51,740 Her whole family is just amazing. They're really my, in a lot of ways, my only family. 86 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:53,540 I don't have a lot of other family around. 87 00:07:53,540 --> 00:07:58,740 And that's just kind of become the theme of our friendship is, 88 00:07:58,740 --> 00:08:01,940 "I have no idea, but I'm willing. I'm here. 89 00:08:01,940 --> 00:08:05,140 And if you come up with a better idea, let me know." 90 00:08:05,140 --> 00:08:10,540 And just having that, there are days that that is what gets me through, 91 00:08:10,540 --> 00:08:14,340 is knowing that I'm not going to call her and scream, 92 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:20,140 because she has other things going on and she doesn't need to hear ear piercing yells and things like that. 93 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:22,540 But I know that I could. 94 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:27,540 And that's really what I would ask our community to do is to say, 95 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:32,340 "We don't have any idea, because we've never looked at anything that looks like this, 96 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:37,340 but we're willing. And if you can tell us what you need from us, here we are." 97 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:42,340 Yeah. Can I ask you sort of a, it was a rumor I saw online. 98 00:08:42,340 --> 00:08:44,340 It's a little graphic. Is it okay if I ask? 99 00:08:44,340 --> 00:08:45,340 Of course. 100 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:46,340 Just because I want it cleared up. 101 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:47,340 Yeah. 102 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:54,340 I had read somewhere that someone was saying the whole furs specifically John and I don't know who. 103 00:08:54,340 --> 00:08:58,340 But they were saying that he was spraying the bodies with lime juice 104 00:08:58,340 --> 00:09:00,340 to make them decompose faster. 105 00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:01,340 Have you heard that? 106 00:09:01,340 --> 00:09:03,340 I have never heard that. That's a new one. 107 00:09:03,340 --> 00:09:11,340 I do know that in a text message, I believe it was in 2020, they were talking about lye. 108 00:09:11,340 --> 00:09:17,340 They were talking about, "We need to dig a hole and use lye, dig a bigger hole and use fire." 109 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:20,340 Or, "I go to prison," which is probably what's going to happen. 110 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:24,340 And that was a full three years before the crime was revealed. 111 00:09:24,340 --> 00:09:27,340 And only about a year into the crime timeline. 112 00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:30,340 But I've never heard lime juice. 113 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:32,340 Maybe that's what they meant. 114 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:36,340 Maybe one of the problems with information being withheld. 115 00:09:36,340 --> 00:09:41,340 And again, I understand the integrity of the case and needless trauma. 116 00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:47,340 I'm not too upset about them not revealing some of the information and the facts of the case. 117 00:09:47,340 --> 00:09:49,340 Right? They have to protect that by day. 118 00:09:49,340 --> 00:09:51,340 I mean the investigation team. 119 00:09:51,340 --> 00:09:59,340 But part of the downfall of information not being shared, is that people will grab onto 120 00:09:59,340 --> 00:10:07,340 what they can understand and turn that into their truth and then share it, which then becomes a truth. 121 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:13,340 And in this case, we've heard a lot of those types of things that just aren't true at all. 122 00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:20,340 But there's so many gaps to fill that people's brains go where they'll go. 123 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:26,340 And especially in a case where the information that we know is very graphic and very hard to hear. 124 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:32,340 It's easier to come up with some of those things that, well, if this part's graphic, this part must be too. 125 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:34,340 So, I'm not sure about lime juice. 126 00:10:34,340 --> 00:10:36,340 I haven't heard anything about lime juice. 127 00:10:36,340 --> 00:10:39,340 I have heard that they intended to use lye. 128 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:45,340 I have been told by the powers that be, that there were no chemicals in the building. 129 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:50,340 But, I do not have any reason to believe that is true. 130 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:56,340 I have every reason to believe that there were chemical processes happening inside the building. 131 00:10:56,340 --> 00:10:59,340 Another question that I kept seeing. 132 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:05,340 And so I want this to be as factual as possible, obviously, with whatever you can share. 133 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:11,340 Another thing that I saw was a lot of people saying, how did this happen? 134 00:11:11,340 --> 00:11:14,340 Weren't people coming in and out of that funeral home? 135 00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:23,340 How did it get to be 4 years if they were conducting business, funerals, and things surrounding funerals? 136 00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:24,340 So how? 137 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:25,340 Good question. 138 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:27,340 So they had multiple locations. 139 00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:32,340 I talked earlier about the other location that they had purchased. 140 00:11:32,340 --> 00:11:36,340 They actually purchased another, they had a location in Colorado Springs. 141 00:11:36,340 --> 00:11:38,340 And they purchased a location down south. 142 00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:40,340 I believe in Canyon City. 143 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:44,340 I want to say that was in January of 2019. 144 00:11:44,340 --> 00:11:48,340 Around March or April, that deal fell through. 145 00:11:48,340 --> 00:12:00,340 Now, at the time, the funeral home had signs up saying Return to Nature, the old website from the other funeral home said we are now Return to Nature. 146 00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:09,340 But then in March or April, maybe May, sometime in the spring, that business deal fell through, presumably because John and Carie didn't have the money to keep it going. 147 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:15,340 And at that point, they purchased Return to Nature, or at least moved over to there. 148 00:12:15,340 --> 00:12:19,340 There's been some talk that they rented it, some talk that they bought it. 149 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:30,340 I don't know the truth of those, but I knew they took occupancy of Return to Nature, Penrose location sometime very early summer of 19. 150 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:33,340 Our loved ones were never supposed to be in Penrose. 151 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:39,340 I knew they had another location. I was under the impression they were in the middle of a move. 152 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:43,340 And that came into play when I asked for my son's hair and fingerprints back. 153 00:12:43,340 --> 00:12:45,340 It took them a year to get that for me. 154 00:12:45,340 --> 00:12:48,340 I didn't get it until October of 20. 155 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:50,340 And we hounded them pretty good about it. 156 00:12:50,340 --> 00:12:53,340 But, we kept being told it was in storage. 157 00:12:53,340 --> 00:13:00,340 I don't know at what point everything kind of switched over completely. 158 00:13:00,340 --> 00:13:03,340 But again, our loved ones wasn’t supposed to be in Penrose. 159 00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:11,340 So it wasn't like people were having their funeral services in Penrose, or going in and out of the building, things like that. 160 00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:15,340 All of those things were happening in their Colorado Springs location. 161 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:19,340 People have also asked like how the employees didn't know. 162 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:22,340 I've talked to a couple of their former employees. 163 00:13:22,340 --> 00:13:28,340 I will say that I don't find any of them complicit in this. 164 00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:33,340 I think there were some mistakes that were made by a couple of the employees. 165 00:13:33,340 --> 00:13:37,340 But they didn't rise to the level of criminality. 166 00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:40,340 And I think they were very separate. 167 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:44,340 They were administrative mistakes, paperwork mistakes, things like that. 168 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:49,340 For me, they're very separate than the crime of having 191 bodies hidden and stacked. 169 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:54,340 In fact, in November of 22, their license ran out. 170 00:13:54,340 --> 00:14:01,340 And John made it very well known in the industry that Penrose location was no more. 171 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:03,340 He told some people that he sold it. 172 00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:05,340 He told some people that it closed down. 173 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:08,340 He told some people that he had rented it to somebody else. 174 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:13,340 The point was that nobody knew that to be John's location anymore. 175 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:16,340 Nobody believed that to be Returned to Nature anymore. 176 00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:22,340 So, you think all of the other employees and everything, they were all at the other location? 177 00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:23,340 Yeah. 178 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:25,340 Okay. Yeah, 100%. 179 00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:30,340 And again, I think there were some things with paperwork that were going on that shouldn't have. 180 00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:33,340 You know, forms that weren't properly filled out, things like that. 181 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:36,340 But, I think it was very much out of ignorance. 182 00:14:36,340 --> 00:14:40,340 And just trusting when John and Carie said, sign this, don't sign that. 183 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:47,340 As young people in the industry that may not have had the training and background that they should have, 184 00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:50,340 they tended to trust what John and Carie said. 185 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,340 Rather than willful criminal intent. 186 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:59,340 But, they weren't Colorado Springs and the Penrose location are quite a distance. 187 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:01,340 45 minutes or so. 188 00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:11,340 So it wasn't something where somebody worked at the Colorado Springs location and then had occasion to drop by the Penrose location on the way home from work. 189 00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:14,340 Or, you know, let me just pop over there and grab this. 190 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:15,340 You know, that kind of thing. 191 00:15:15,340 --> 00:15:21,340 They were very separate and distinct locations that weren't just right on the way for each other. 192 00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:22,340 And what about Carie? 193 00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:32,340 Do you think she is equally, I mean, we've heard on the show that they think John was the one putting the bodies in the fridge and all that? 194 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:41,340 She obviously had to know, do you think she had just as much involvement or do you personally believe she was more administrative as well? 195 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:51,340 You know, I struggle with that, because in court at her preliminary, they listed off a bunch of dates and times that the phones pinged at the Penrose location. 196 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:58,340 And by my count, Carie was there more often and she was there more often alone. 197 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:05,340 I don't know if she was there slinging bodies, or if she was there to pray over her husband's handy work. 198 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:06,340 I have no idea. 199 00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:10,340 But, it tells me that she was complicit to a degree. 200 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:27,340 I believe that she definitely, well, I know that she definitely knew by 2020 what was going on because the texts back and forth to each other show that they're talking about what they're going to do to fix it. 201 00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:34,340 So that tells me that she knew what he was doing, or was engaging in it with him to some degree. 202 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:45,340 And they both had a guilty conscience about that because they're both talking about getting rid of the bodies with a new machine, lye, or fire or, they go to prison. 203 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:50,340 So for at least 3 years, she knew what was going on. 204 00:16:50,340 --> 00:16:54,340 In the beginning of this, I very much held John. 205 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,340 I don't want to say fully responsible. 206 00:16:57,340 --> 00:17:03,340 I didn't think that Carie was innocent, but I put the majority of the responsibility on John shoulders. 207 00:17:03,340 --> 00:17:15,340 And was very angry with Carie later down the line when I started realizing how many people had face to face interaction with her. 208 00:17:15,340 --> 00:17:18,340 My case was a little bit different. 209 00:17:18,340 --> 00:17:19,340 I never met John. 210 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:20,340 I never met Carie. 211 00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:24,340 I talked to her on the phone a few times. She was not pleasant with me. 212 00:17:24,340 --> 00:17:37,340 But I didn't know I knew that the woman I was talking to was Carrie, but I didn't know Carrie was the Co-owner. I just figured it was some disgruntled employee that was going to be kind of nasty to me because she didn't care about her job. 213 00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:40,340 I didn't know that she was the one running the location. 214 00:17:40,340 --> 00:17:49,340 Many of my friends now have detailed their interactions with her where she was the one who signed the paperwork with them. 215 00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:56,340 She was the one on the phone. She was the one sitting across the table and saying, "We are going to take very good care of your father. 216 00:17:56,340 --> 00:18:02,340 Your child is in good hands. Don't worry. We're going to plant a tree on the mountain side." 217 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:09,340 So that scale of culpability, I guess, has very much evened out for me. 218 00:18:09,340 --> 00:18:16,340 Knowing that he may have been the one that did it, but she was the one who brought the victims to him. 219 00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:28,340 At any point, she could have said, "Stop. I don't want to take your child, because I know he's going to end up dumped out of his body bag in the corner of an inoperable fridge under 40 other people." 220 00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:36,340 And she didn't. She continued to sign those contracts and make promises to people who were in the most vulnerable positions of their life. 221 00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:42,340 And she did that as a mother. And that's the part that really gets to me. 222 00:18:42,340 --> 00:18:50,340 I would love to have a conversation with her to find out how that initial conversation between the two of them happened. 223 00:18:50,340 --> 00:19:09,340 Maybe that would change my mind about her level of culpability. But she did this as a mother, as a wife, as a daughter, knowing what she was doing to other children and husbands and parents. 224 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:18,340 So I have no love in my heart for either one of them. I think he's just been a scammy dirtbag for a lot longer than she is. 225 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:23,340 We've talked to rape victims of his all the way back to 1996. 226 00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:31,340 X-wives that outlined abuse and manipulation and things like that. This was not his first crime. 227 00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:40,340 This may be the first that he's being held accountable for what he's doing. But he's committed crimes for at least 30 years. 228 00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:43,340 He has quite the trail of wreckage in his past. 229 00:19:43,340 --> 00:19:58,340 Yeah. Do you think, and this is a good thing, I think, do you think that your group and all of you pushing through this case had anything to do with the laws that were changed after this? 230 00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:07,340 So previous to the case, and please correct me if I'm wrong, embalmers and funeral homes weren't required to be licensed and now they are. 231 00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:17,340 Kind of. The funeral home itself, if I understand it correctly, because there's a lot of legal ease that I don't quite understand. 232 00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:28,340 My understanding is that the funeral home itself had to be licensed. So the building had to be licensed. There had to be certain requirements met for that. 233 00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:36,340 But you and I don't have to be licensed. So what that means is if you and I are watching a true crime and we're like, oh, we could do that better. 234 00:20:36,340 --> 00:20:42,340 We should go get a funeral home in Colorado to register your business. It's $50 to the Secretary of State. 235 00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:50,340 It takes about 10 minutes and you get a certificate of good standing before you even hit enter almost, right? Before your card clears. 236 00:20:50,340 --> 00:21:02,340 So if you and I want to have a flower shop, we can log online. You put in your 25 bucks. I put in my 25 bucks. We pay the state the 50 bucks. 237 00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:05,340 And now we are the proud owners of a florist. 238 00:21:05,340 --> 00:21:13,340 We could do the same to run a funeral, home and we wouldn't even have to have a brick and mortar. 239 00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:31,340 If we were sitting here at noon and decided that we wanted to be funeral directors by 1230, we could take our first body and we could go pick up the body from the corner, process it with the correct paperwork, drop it off at the crematorium, pick up the ashes later and take them to the family. 240 00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:37,340 All of that without even having a building. All we need is that $50 registration with the state. 241 00:21:37,340 --> 00:21:48,340 There were things in place to my knowledge, things like drainage and refrigeration, time requirements and things like that that applied to the building itself. 242 00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:59,340 Now, they've passed three laws. One of them deals with licensing. One is dealing with education and one is dealing with body donations for medical purposes. 243 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:14,340 And our group absolutely had a hand in that. And I use the term our group very loosely in that sense that we have the group Colorado remembers that has spun out of group of victims in the return for major case. 244 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:28,340 But there are also people who were victims in this case and others who are not part of Colorado Remembers, who also showed up for testimon, and met with legislators and things like that. 245 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:34,340 I showed up and testified a few times. I tried to make it to as many of the meetings I could. 246 00:22:34,340 --> 00:22:49,340 I think my testimony had an impact, but there were several other people who spent so many more hours than I possibly could have, specifically two women named Sheila and Abby. 247 00:22:49,340 --> 00:23:05,340 They put in so much effort into the legislative part of the process. I don't think we ever would have gotten as far as we did or had as much success as we did in the legislature sessions if they had not been involved. 248 00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:12,340 That credit really goes to them. They made it their life mission to get some of this push through. 249 00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:23,340 And prior to them, prior to our case even being a case, when Sunset Mesa happened, those victims pushed through in a similar manner. 250 00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:29,340 And they were able to get it on the desk so that people would even pay attention to any of this. 251 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:35,340 When they were victimized, abusive of corpse was only a misdemeanor charge. 252 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:52,340 The perpetrators has in court in that case didn't even have state charges. So because of the way that those victims fought, it became a felony charge so that we even have a case in Return to Nature. 253 00:23:52,340 --> 00:24:01,340 So it really has been a series of victims continuing to fight to get to where we are now. And we're still not happy with where we are now. 254 00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:10,340 Two of the things that I really want to see go through legislation have to do with the crematoriums themselves, which are a checks and balance system. 255 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:18,340 One, that the crematorium has to actually identify the body. They're getting ready to cremate. That's not a thing in Colorado right now. 256 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:23,340 Secondly, that they then have to report back to the state saying that the cremation did in fact happen. 257 00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:29,340 And I think if either one of those two things had happened in our case, it wouldn't have gone as far as it did. 258 00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:38,340 And certainly they wouldn't have cremated bodies that were then actually found in the building. Now nobody knows who was actually cremated. 259 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:47,340 Do you want to tell people what to look for? So if your loved one is being cremated, what should you receive to know you have the right person? 260 00:24:47,340 --> 00:25:03,340 Absolutely. I know it varies across state. But in Colorado, you and in really most reputable places that we've come across, you really should get paperwork that says that the cremation happened. 261 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:11,340 And who was cremated, what day and time, where they were cremated, and by who? In Colorado, that also comes with a cremation certificate. 262 00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:20,340 And it's sometimes very administrative looking, other times it looks like a certificate you would print up on your computer. 263 00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:29,340 But you should have something saying John was cremated on this day, at this time, by this person, or at least this agency. 264 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:40,340 And in Colorado, you should also get a shiny metal tag. It looks similar to a rabies tag in the sense that it'll have those digits, the numerical portion on the silver tag. 265 00:25:40,340 --> 00:25:53,340 Sometimes it has a letter prior to it that designates the agency that did the cremation. And that tag in Colorado would be zip tied to the outside of that tag. 266 00:25:53,340 --> 00:26:09,340 In our case, many of our loved ones cremation remains did not come with the certificate or the tag Or if there was a tag, it was buried inside the bag. Both of those are huge red flags. That should not happen. 267 00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,340 Okay, I think that's good for people to know because I wouldn't know that. 268 00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:20,340 Right, we didn't know that. And I'm a pitbull, especially when it comes to my child, and more so my dead child. 269 00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:27,340 So, if I had known I should have gotten a cremation certificate and a metal tag. 270 00:26:27,340 --> 00:26:42,340 If I hadn't gotten that, I would have marched down there and not left until they gave it to me, or figured out, or I would have called the crematory and said, "Hey, where's my tag? I don't think I even would have gone after John and Carie." 271 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:48,340 I think I would have gone to the crematory and said, "Where's my tag? Where's my certificate? What did you do?" 272 00:26:48,340 --> 00:27:06,340 They would have said, "We don't know who your kid is, we didn't do it." And it would have stopped it two weeks into this whole thing. I think that's where my guilt lies in this case, is that if I had only known what we should have gotten during cremation, I would have spoken up. 273 00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:18,340 And there's 190 other families who I think, feel the same. If any one of us would have known that we were supposed to have a tag and a sticker. We all would have said something. 274 00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:29,340 And I got away with it because of the ignorance in the community. Because you just, you assume, just like when you're getting married, you assume that the pastor is going to know what your vows are supposed to be. 275 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:40,340 You know, it's follow the leader. He says, "Do you, and then you say you do." You know, in a baptism, it's the same thing. You trust that the person in charge is going to walk you through that. 276 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:55,340 And how much more so during a death, the subsequent process is of the funeral and the memorialization that we should be able to trust that that person knows what's right and wrong, and that they're going to treat us as such. 277 00:27:55,340 --> 00:28:06,340 And instead, they very much prayed on our ignorance. Yeah. Is there anything else about the case that you want to talk about specifically, but I want to make sure we cover it on the show. 278 00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:19,340 It said that they both pled guilty to crimes, and they were both up for 20 years. However, I think isn't John sentencing next month, but Caries got pushed. Is that correct? 279 00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:29,340 We've had a bunch of changes and it was real confusing last week, because one thing would change and then somebody else would respond to that change with a new change, and we got very convoluted for a minute. 280 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:38,340 Back in October and November, we had the plea agreement hearings in federal and then in state, one back to back. 281 00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:52,340 At that time, the intention or the expectation rather was that John and Carie would show up. They would say, yes, we plead guilty and we agree to this plea agreement. 282 00:28:52,340 --> 00:29:03,340 That plea agreement because of the federal sentencing timeline or guidelines rather. I believe it was somewhere around 61 months to 15 years. 283 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:14,340 So, the plea agreement was that the government wouldn't ask for more than 15 years, and the defense wouldn't ask for less than that 61 months. 284 00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:27,340 We were under the impression that the judge would at that time accept the plea agreement, and then set it for sentencing in March, and then November and April for state. 285 00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:44,340 We objected to the plea agreement in open court in federal and basically said, I'm not objecting to the plea agreement because I know that this is the best we can get, but I'm objecting to a system that makes this the best we can get. 286 00:29:44,340 --> 00:30:02,340 The federal charges started out as 15 counts, the first 12 being wire fraud against the families, the 13th being conspiracy to commit wire fraud, the 14th being the COVID wire fraud and the 15th being the conspiracy for that. 287 00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:10,340 And my understanding is that they dismissed all charges except for the 13th, which is the conspiracy to commit wire fraud. 288 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:22,340 So, that's what they're being sentenced based on. We were pissed how do you take all of this that's happened and break it down into one count and a 15 year term. 289 00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:32,340 So, I objected and the judge decided to hold off accepting the plea agreement until sentencing, which was scheduled for March 20th. 290 00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:53,340 We just had a pre status conference, I think is what they called it last Tuesday and at that time the judge notified the courtroom that the court is not bound to that plea agreement and that they would not be bound to that 15 year request. 291 00:30:53,340 --> 00:31:08,340 So they gave the defense a couple options, one, they could move forward and still accept the plea agreement as it stood, knowing that she can sentence them to longer than those 15 years, or they could take it to trial. 292 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:22,340 John chose to continue his guilty plea. So he will have his sentencing on June 27th in Denver, federal court and Carie chose to take it to trial. 293 00:31:22,340 --> 00:31:27,340 So, her trial is scheduled for 10 days beginning September 8th. 294 00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:47,340 So, we still have April 18th is at this time stands, our sentencing in the state charges and that's 191 counts of abuse of the corpse 15 to 20 years for carry and 20 years for John. 295 00:31:47,340 --> 00:32:06,340 And at this time we believe that that's still on schedule. The problem for us with that is that that is 15 or 20 years for 191 counts, which seems very low for us, and it's to run concurrent with the federal sentencing. 296 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:26,340 So if they serve federal time at about 80%, let's say the judge upward departs and gives them 20 years. That means that they'll serve 15 roughly and then if they get 15 to 20 years in state, they'll serve about 25% of that. 297 00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:40,340 So let's say five years with those running concurrent, then the federal time literally swallows up the state time. So they're not serving any not a single minute for their state crimes. 298 00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:53,340 So frustrating. It is. So we're really, I say fighting, but there's really not much of a fight to it. We're really hoping that the judge in the state case sentences them consecutively rather than concurrently. 299 00:32:53,340 --> 00:33:12,340 Obviously, we hope that for you as well. Thank you. Send that energy out because I think again that's where we almost feel revictimized. You know how does the state stand up in court and sentence them to time that's not going to be served? 300 00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:21,340 It really almost feels like a slap in the face. That's understandable. Yeah. I'm going to get a little deep here, if we're already. 301 00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:31,340 So when we spoke a month ago, you had said and I wrote down quote, so I want to read this because I don't want to miss. 302 00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:41,340 You had said that some of the families were having dreams and thinking that their loved ones weren't at rest because of what happened with their physical bodies. 303 00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:53,340 Some of you were concerned that their souls are lost because there was no proper burial or whatever religious beliefs they had their bodies weren't handled in that manner. 304 00:33:53,340 --> 00:34:03,340 And so there was some concern about their souls. I reached out to a friend of mine and I'm going to pull up my texts. She's a medium. 305 00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:13,340 I asked her to watch the episode and she did. She also consulted another friend of ours who's a medium. So, I'm going to tell you kind of what they both said. 306 00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:24,340 One of them said that, okay, and I'm just going to again quote this because I don't want to miss. "I never felt anything in that episode that made me feel that they're stuck. 307 00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:36,340 I did feel that multiple bodies were burned together and that no one really got their families." And I don't know if that's accurate, but that's what one of them said. 308 00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:44,340 She reiterated and said that watching the episode, she didn't get any feelings of lost or stuck anybody. 309 00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:58,340 Again, she's not physically there, but she doesn't really need to be. She can sort of tap into that remotely. And then our other friend said she felt that I'm going to read this. 310 00:34:58,340 --> 00:35:06,340 "I feel maybe a piece of them could be stuck, but the majority of them are met with ancestors and angels to help them cross over. 311 00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:16,340 And I feel like that's what happened here. Nine out of ten times the spirit will follow their loved ones." And she said there'd be no reason for them to be there. 312 00:35:16,340 --> 00:35:21,340 "If they're there, it's not because they're stuck. It's because they're choosing to stay there, maybe to fight." 313 00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:27,340 So, they both said similar feelings of everybody. 314 00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:39,340 I think what this case brought up for a lot of us. I've been in a pretty big spiritual battle since my son died. Most of the people around me told me that my son was in hell because of how he died. 315 00:35:39,340 --> 00:35:46,340 Because, of course, that's where you're going if you get killed by police, because you're a monster. 316 00:35:46,340 --> 00:35:54,340 It took me about a year and a half of counseling with my friend Jason Patrick to understand that that wasn't accurate. 317 00:35:54,340 --> 00:36:02,340 But this threw me into another huge spiritual battle of I really thought I had laid my son to rest. 318 00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:12,340 I thought I had pushed him down his path to peace in cremating him and spreading him all over the country and taking him on these grand adventures and things. 319 00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:32,340 I really thought I had honored him and let him go. But, you know, what do you say to my friend whose grandmother was a perfect Catholic woman who had never shown her ankles to any man other than her husband? 320 00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:52,340 And had very strict ways of her body being processed upon death. And now those things didn't happen. Well, if she had chosen not to have it completed or her family had according to her religion, she'd be in purgatory. 321 00:36:52,340 --> 00:37:05,340 She doesn't get to cross over because she didn't do it right. And what John and Carie did, was take that from those families and leave these families wondering what happened to grandma's spirit. 322 00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:15,340 Does she get to cross over because God knew that she wasn't the one who made the choice, or if she stuck because the choice was made? 323 00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:37,340 I think whatever your religion or your spiritual beliefs are, you can understand how that would, how we would question that. I will tell you I can't count the number of people who have told me that they would have dreams of searching for their loved one after the death. 324 00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:53,340 I had that dream constantly. I was always looking for David. I wasn't missing him. I wasn't upset. I mean, I was. But these dreams weren't about missing him. They were about him missing. 325 00:37:53,340 --> 00:38:07,340 Him not where he was supposed to be. And it was strange because I have a urn. I have what's supposed to be all of him. But he would never come to me in my dreams. And I always had this feeling like he was lost. 326 00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:18,340 I've talked to several people who would pass the Penrose building on their way traveling back and forth to work, or family, or whatever. And remember, our loved ones were not supposed to be in Penrose. 327 00:38:18,340 --> 00:38:31,340 And they would get like chills as they passed Penrose, or they would have nightmares the night after they were in Penrose about their loved ones missing. I was on a Zoom call one time a little over a year ago. 328 00:38:31,340 --> 00:38:43,340 And there were 4 of us on that were joking about playing Where's Waldo. And all 4 of us had had recurring dreams about Waldo, about our loved ones wearing the little Waldo hat. 329 00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:57,340 I think that's been a kind of a theme amongst at least many of our victims, not necessarily most. I have a very small data set, you know, out of those 1200 people. I only talk to a couple hundred of those. 330 00:38:57,340 --> 00:39:10,340 But that's been a recurring theme for many of us that that feeling of missing, or lost, or wandering. And again, that's one of the questions that we can't possibly answer. 331 00:39:10,340 --> 00:39:26,340 Because it's based on spiritual belief, rather than scientific fact. But what we do know, is that science says that their bodies were physically still there in conditions that were deplorable. 332 00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:33,340 So, it really makes you wonder therefore what, what was their spirit doing, you know. 333 00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:46,340 Well, and it's hard because you do have so many different religious beliefs here because of the number of people, obviously. And everyone and every religion believe something different. 334 00:39:46,340 --> 00:40:10,340 Almost every, Amy and I know multiple mediums. I would say that every single one of them believes the body, the physical body is just a vessel. And when you pass your soul goes somewhere else. And so what happens to that vessel after even if you think of cremation just in itself, your soul's not in there. 335 00:40:10,340 --> 00:40:23,340 So I hope that I don't know if that gives any of you any comfort to know that reliable mediums both said they don't see anyone stuck there. 336 00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:39,340 Yeah, I appreciate it. I think to though, and I don't say this for anything but transparency, I think one of the things that I hear a lot from victims is that when we have people who will share the story. 337 00:40:39,340 --> 00:40:59,340 And I'm not saying this is what you're doing at all, by any means, but people will say, but it's just their body, you know, it almost feels like it minimizes what we're going through because of that level of uncertainty, because we don't know. 338 00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:13,340 And because, even if we do know, imagine seeing road kill or a puppy hit on the side of the road, nobody goes over and says, well, it's okay. It's just the it's just the fur. 339 00:41:13,340 --> 00:41:18,340 So again, it goes back to that idea of this being so taboo. 340 00:41:18,340 --> 00:41:39,340 And so out of the norm for our society that there aren't answers like that. Not only do we not know Exactly what John and Carie did to our loved ones, especially in the case of those 1,000, but we don't know what the consequences for us, even were of those actions. 341 00:41:39,340 --> 00:42:00,340 Because we have you can put 10 people in a room together, and have 12 different ideas about what happened before death and after. So, I appreciate you sharing it with me. It does bring comfort. And I know it'll bring a lot of people comfort because it's something that, you know, it's so hard to know who to trust now. This case has rocked our trust. 342 00:42:00,340 --> 00:42:08,340 And I know there are days where I have to look at the ground before I step out of bed to make sure that the floor is still there, because I don't trust anything. 343 00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:18,340 So to have people that you trust say that is very comforting. And I know it will be to a lot of other people. But there's no certainty. 344 00:42:18,340 --> 00:42:30,340 And what may be truth for me, might be not comforting or even not truth to somebody else because of the way that their spirituality or their religion is. 345 00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:36,340 And that's one of the things that's so hard about this case is that these people did not pick a sect of people. 346 00:42:36,340 --> 00:42:53,340 They did this to men, women, black, white, Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic. They did this to fetuses and 20 year olds and 100 year olds. 347 00:42:53,340 --> 00:43:07,340 Their victimology and this spanned such a great distance with who they chose as their victims that nobody in our community was safe during this time, and we didn't even know that it was happening. 348 00:43:07,340 --> 00:43:15,340 And I'm glad you said that about the physical body and how you all feel about it, because I didn't necessarily see it from that perspective. 349 00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:21,340 And I want to hear everything, how you feel. You know, I don't take that personally at all. 350 00:43:21,340 --> 00:43:29,340 Like I said, it is comforting, and I know it will be to some and other people won't care because there's just such a span of belief. 351 00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:35,340 That's been one of the difficult things in this case is, because people don't know how to respond. 352 00:43:35,340 --> 00:43:41,340 They respond in whatever way makes sense to them because we're humans and that's what we do, right? 353 00:43:41,340 --> 00:43:47,340 We hear any message. We hear it. We process it and we respond in a way that we think is appropriate. 354 00:43:47,340 --> 00:43:56,340 Except that when you get stuck on that understanding part of it, your brain still wants to spit something out that's comforting. 355 00:43:56,340 --> 00:44:00,340 You still want to tell your friend it'll be okay. 356 00:44:00,340 --> 00:44:13,340 But if you get lost in that understanding loop, sometimes you just stutter there and say something that just doesn't make sense or isn't comforting, even if it's not with that intention. 357 00:44:13,340 --> 00:44:23,340 I have a friend Shane in Hawaii. He and I were talking just a couple days ago over the phone, and I asked him how he was doing and he's like, "I'm changed forever. 358 00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:29,340 I'll never be the same person I got." And we talk about how this really has changed the core of who we are. 359 00:44:29,340 --> 00:44:36,340 He'll tell me all the time the worst thing that somebody can say is it was just a body. 360 00:44:36,340 --> 00:44:51,340 Because for me, that body is the body that I gave birth to, and potty trained, and fed Cheerios too, and ran through the park with, and kissed his boo-bos. 361 00:44:51,340 --> 00:44:56,340 That body is what I saw every single time I interacted with my child. 362 00:44:56,340 --> 00:45:05,340 So when something like this happens, it's hard to separate his soul is okay, even though his body is trash. 363 00:45:05,340 --> 00:45:10,340 Because that body, that's now treated like trash, is the one that I held. 364 00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:15,340 When I looked at him, I didn't see his soul. I saw his beautiful eyes. 365 00:45:15,340 --> 00:45:22,340 I saw his demples and his laugh. I saw his wobbly run when he was a toddler. 366 00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:27,340 I saw him grow into this man. All of that was his body. 367 00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:38,340 It's again one of those complexities of this case that it's hard to understand when you're not going through this, because how could you possibly understand? 368 00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:42,340 Right and everyone's always well-intentioned, and I learned this too with my niece. 369 00:45:42,340 --> 00:45:49,340 It's just anyone that hasn't been through it, they just don't know what to say and they don't understand. 370 00:45:49,340 --> 00:46:02,340 Yeah, a lot of times I think that's true. I think people want so badly to either comfort or to get it out of the way so they don't have to hear about it anymore. 371 00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:07,340 I think that's a lot of people's way of trying to bring that comfort is it's okay. 372 00:46:07,340 --> 00:46:13,340 It's okay, because they were only there for a short time. It's okay, because their soul is at rest. It's okay, because it's just a body. 373 00:46:13,340 --> 00:46:17,340 It's okay, because they're being charged. It's okay, because they're in jail now. 374 00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:22,340 It's okay, because you guys have this fantastic new group that's leaning on each other. 375 00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:29,340 Well, all of those may be positive things, but none of that makes it okay. 376 00:46:29,340 --> 00:46:39,340 And I don't know what will. I don't know that there is anything that will take away the nightmares or undo the harm that John and Carie have done to us. 377 00:46:39,340 --> 00:46:49,340 Even if we had scientific proof that on the day that they dumped my child out of his body bag, his soul was already gone and it was just his meat suit. 378 00:46:49,340 --> 00:47:00,340 It's still to know that that body, that I held for 20 years, was treated in that manner doesn't make me feel more comforted about his soul. 379 00:47:00,340 --> 00:47:06,340 I mean, it does to a degree but it barely touches on it because of the atrocities that happened. 380 00:47:06,340 --> 00:47:13,340 That makes sense. I've fully I hear you and thank you, for it's a crazy case. 381 00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:20,340 It is insane where your mind will take you trying to process something like this about your loved one. 382 00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:29,340 Do you want to circle back and talk about the park and raising funds, which we hope to help with? 383 00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:40,340 Talk about when we spoke a month ago, the whole point or the purpose of the park with all of the ashes and everything, if you want to make sure you talk about that. 384 00:47:40,340 --> 00:47:47,340 So, Colorado Remembers came to be actually because of another crime Apollo here in Colorado. 385 00:47:47,340 --> 00:47:52,340 In that case, Miles Hartford was evicted from his home in Denver. 386 00:47:52,340 --> 00:48:01,340 During the eviction process, they towed the hearse to the front of the house and they found the body of Mrs. Christina Rosales in the back of his hearse. 387 00:48:01,340 --> 00:48:08,340 I met George, her husband at some press conference type stuff down at the Capitol during legislation. 388 00:48:08,340 --> 00:48:16,340 We agreed that we need to come together to make some changes at the state level, and in our communities, and things like that. 389 00:48:16,340 --> 00:48:24,340 We continued to talk, and he was at the time the considered the primary victim in the Apollo case. 390 00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:30,340 There were something like the cremated remains of I think, 35 people also found in Miles possession. 391 00:48:30,340 --> 00:48:35,340 But at the time he was being treated as kind of the primary. 392 00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:44,340 So, he felt very alone in that case, and didn't feel like he had a lot of support, because again, how do you? It's one thing to say my wife just died. 393 00:48:44,340 --> 00:48:47,340 Society knows how to respond to that. 394 00:48:47,340 --> 00:48:56,340 My wife's body was just found 18 months after she was cremated is a very different community response. 395 00:48:56,340 --> 00:48:59,340 So, we agreed we needed to come together. 396 00:48:59,340 --> 00:49:09,340 Somebody approached us very shortly after that and said that they could potentially give us a share of up to a very large plot of land. 397 00:49:09,340 --> 00:49:22,340 So we came together, we formed a board, we got official with our 501(c)(3) at the state and federal level and got more than 100 people to sign in support, in less than 7 days. 398 00:49:22,340 --> 00:49:29,340 Got a site plan together, had multiple meetings and figured out exactly what we were going to do. 399 00:49:29,340 --> 00:49:48,340 We decided that it would be a 20 acre memorial garden park, similar to like a state park where you can come in and see a visitor center, where you can watch videos about the crime and about how it happened, and get educated on legislation and why this is important things like that. 400 00:49:48,340 --> 00:49:51,340 Similar to what you would see at a state or national park. 401 00:49:51,340 --> 00:50:03,340 And then also have the memorial garden itself, different places that would honor through the park, different spiritualities, different religions, and beliefs, rock garden, fountains, things like that. 402 00:50:03,340 --> 00:50:06,340 Camping area, so that people can come from out of state. 403 00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:15,340 A lot of our victims, you have to remember the bodies that were found or that are missing all died in Colorado, and were supposed to be cremated or buried in Colorado. 404 00:50:15,340 --> 00:50:26,340 But they have loved one scattered all over the country. So we wanted to make it easier for someone from out of town to come and visit the memorial grounds, and be able to have a place to pitch a tent. 405 00:50:26,340 --> 00:50:40,340 Things like that. We really put a lot of thought and effort into exactly how we would do this to make it a welcoming open spot that would honor not just our dead, but also those of us who are still living. 406 00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:48,340 I need a place where I can go and know that I'm not fighting alone, and every single person standing next to me needs that also. 407 00:50:48,340 --> 00:51:07,340 We also, part of it that we wanted to integrate was I keep calling it the Well. Carol reminds me quite often that we did not agree it would be a Well, but some type of receptacle where we can open it up and dump the ashes of the person that we received. 408 00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:19,340 So for example, I don't know yet what I'm going to do with my son's ashes. I already thought I took a 450,000 mile road trip taking him to the ends of the earth and back. 409 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:29,340 I don't know if I'm ready to let him go again. I feel like I get kind of a second chance to do that right again. And I don't think I could possibly do it the same way that I did the first time. 410 00:51:29,340 --> 00:51:40,340 The first time was perfect. Second time, I don't think I can recreate. So I don't know if I would spread my son, but I am carrying grandma Fido, because that someone else's loved one. 411 00:51:40,340 --> 00:51:55,340 I want that person to be honored in a way that truly respects their wishes. I can't do that. It is not possible for me to do that because I don't have any way of knowing what their wishes were or the wishes of the family because of the lack of identity. 412 00:51:55,340 --> 00:52:09,340 So the idea is if I take grandma Fido, and you take Joe, and you take Susie, and we dump all of those cremation remains into that well-like receptacle. 413 00:52:09,340 --> 00:52:19,340 Then if Joe is mine, and grandma Fido is yours, and Susie is yours, now all three of those are there to be visited by each of us. 414 00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:36,340 So that was the kind of the idea behind that is that, even though we don't know who we have, the more people who take what we did receive to a central location, the better the odds are that when you go to that location, you're also there in presence with your own loved one. 415 00:52:36,340 --> 00:52:47,340 Again, that's the other half of what Colorado Remembers is doing. We're doing the mental health support and the networking and the leaning into each other, and the education and all of that. 416 00:52:47,340 --> 00:53:04,340 But our big long-term goal, our permanent goal, I guess, is getting that memorial garden set up so that we can honor our dead, the ones that were identified and the ones that have not been found from this case, and the other cases that have continued to go on in Colorado. 417 00:53:04,340 --> 00:53:15,340 And build a place of remembrance and support for them, but also in honor of our fight because we are going through something that is almost unfathomable. 418 00:53:15,340 --> 00:53:27,340 We're trying real hard to raise the money so that we can do that, or to find a really generous farmer who has decided that his cows need 5 less acres. 419 00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:35,340 Our original plan was a 20 or 25 acre plan, but that was because that's what we were told that we were being given. 420 00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:41,340 Unfortunately, they had to pull that offer because they didn't have the legal authority to give us the land they were offering us. 421 00:53:41,340 --> 00:53:49,340 So a little bit of a snafu, mildly important in the grand scheme of things, but we can do our site plan with as small as an acre. 422 00:53:49,340 --> 00:54:01,340 So we're really looking for the financial backing or support, even if that's dollar donations one at a time, or for somebody who has a small piece of land to donate that. 423 00:54:01,340 --> 00:54:06,340 And again, we're a 501c3, so we can give a tax write off for that, so that we can start to build. 424 00:54:06,340 --> 00:54:17,340 Once we have the dirt, the plot of land itself, the rest of it, we are going to need some funding, but we also have a lot of people willing to put in some sweat equity. 425 00:54:17,340 --> 00:54:29,340 So things like building the visitor center, for example, we would need the money, or the donations for the materials, but we have people who will come out and build it for us. 426 00:54:29,340 --> 00:54:34,340 Including ourselves, you know, swing and hammers and digging with shovels as it is. 427 00:54:34,340 --> 00:54:46,340 But that's the idea is for us to put together a memorial park, so that we can truly honor our fight through this and the memories of both the dead and the living who are still having to go through the worst. 428 00:54:46,340 --> 00:54:49,340 And we're going to go through this together. 429 00:54:49,340 --> 00:54:59,340 What area are you looking in case someone does have any land anywhere in Colorado?  It does need to be in Colorado, because this is a Colorado based organization. 430 00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:07,340 Unfortunately, we're seeing cases like this popping up continuously all across the country, but our focus is Colorado. 431 00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:20,340 And we would like to try to keep it as central as possible somewhere like El Paso or Albert County, even Teller Fremont County is still very close to the scene of this crime. 432 00:55:20,340 --> 00:55:33,340 But we have a lot of flexibility in that unfortunately, these cases are not limited to that area. Sunset Mesa was all the way out in Montrose on the western slope. 433 00:55:33,340 --> 00:55:37,340 And Apollo was up here in Denver, where I currently live. 434 00:55:37,340 --> 00:55:49,340 So we're trying to get it more towards central or southern Colorado, you know, just because that's where the majority of the people who are involved in the nonprofit and the founding members tend to live. 435 00:55:49,340 --> 00:56:07,340 But anywhere in the state of Colorado, we are not picky. And we are also looking at the potential of even having small spots, kind of scattered throughout the state, where other places will host even just a billboard or a kiosk type thing. 436 00:56:07,340 --> 00:56:10,340 And in that way, we wouldn't need the large area of land. 437 00:56:10,340 --> 00:56:19,340 We would use this business as front yard, and that businesses side room and that sort of thing. So we're willing to be very creative. 438 00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:30,340 But again, ideally, if we had our way and it was a perfect world, we would be looking at 5 acres or so in Albert or El Paso counties. 439 00:56:30,340 --> 00:56:33,340 Okay. Did I miss anything? Amy, do you have anything? 440 00:56:33,340 --> 00:56:43,340 We just need that one generous farmer. I am convinced I told them that when we got the news May of last year, that it wasn't going to go through like we intended and planned. 441 00:56:43,340 --> 00:56:52,340 I told them that I am believing that there is a rich farmer out there who just has a couple acres laying around that their cows aren't using and that's what we're hoping for. 442 00:56:52,340 --> 00:56:54,340 But we will take pennies also. 443 00:56:54,340 --> 00:56:55,340 Yes. 444 00:56:55,340 --> 00:57:11,340 Amy, did I miss anything? Do you have any questions? I know I just kept going it. No, I just want to say again how much adore you, and I have so much respect for you and everything that you have done, and the voice that you have put out there. 445 00:57:11,340 --> 00:57:15,340 Thank you. It means a lot. This is the hardest thing that I've ever gone through. 446 00:57:15,340 --> 00:57:37,340 And there are many, many days that I wake up and wonder what Twilight Zone I'm in today. The one thing that keeps me going, and I think keeps a lot of the victims going, is knowing that each time we speak, somebody new is hearing it and is able to either offer support or be supported by that. 447 00:57:37,340 --> 00:57:49,340 We have a lot of new victims that are just finding out about the case, because of the podcast or the documentaries and the social media and things like that that we're putting out there. 448 00:57:49,340 --> 00:57:57,340 We just had one person whose daughter was a potential victim, who just found out about this case about a week or two ago. 449 00:57:57,340 --> 00:58:07,340 Here we are a year and a half in, and there are still so many of those 6,000 people that we talked about that are just now even finding out. 450 00:58:07,340 --> 00:58:16,340 So it means a lot to have the avenue to make that happen so that we can still continue, not just to reach out to the community for support. 451 00:58:16,340 --> 00:58:38,340 But so that somebody who might hear this might say, oh my goodness, Colorado Springs, that's where Joe is, and look into it and find out that their family has been affected, so that they can get the help that they need now, rather than finding out about this five or 10 years down the road in some off the wall news article. 452 00:58:38,340 --> 00:58:47,340 And now, they don't know how to respond because that time of response is gone. So it means a lot. I really appreciate you guys being here for that. 453 00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:54,340 You're so welcome. Did we miss anything? Did you have anything in mind specific that we maybe didn't talk about? I want to make sure. 454 00:58:54,340 --> 00:59:04,340 There's so much with this case that it would take days, many, many 12 hour days to go through all of it. But I think we got most of it. 455 00:59:04,340 --> 00:59:28,340 We're definitely open to updates too. Absolutely. And as more, you know, there's a lot of information that we do have, that we're not able to share right now because of that because for example, imagine the person who's just finding out about the case now, finding out all of the case now, you know, going from kind of 0 to 100. 456 00:59:28,340 --> 00:59:41,340 That's part of what we've been trying to avoid. We want to get out enough information that people understand the impact so that we can get the kind of support and help that we need through this, and offer that to other people as well. 457 00:59:41,340 --> 00:59:50,340 But, we also don't want to put out certain things that would be extremely traumatizing to someone just finding out the basic information. 458 00:59:50,340 --> 01:00:01,340 But as the case goes, and particularly as it goes through trial, a lot more of that will be released and will be able to open up and talk about that a lot more freely too. 459 01:00:01,340 --> 01:00:06,340 Okay. Yeah, there will be a round 2 for sure later, probably later this year. 460 01:00:06,340 --> 01:00:13,340 Everyone go check out any of the information, the Facebook page, the GoFundMe, all of that. Through your support. 461 01:00:13,340 --> 01:00:20,340 However that looks for you and what you're able to do, they will appreciate any of it. Yes, absolutely. 462 01:00:20,340 --> 01:00:25,340 All right, well, we'll meet back here in a week. Thank you, everybody. 463 01:00:25,340 --> 01:00:29,340 It was so nice to meet you Cryatina. You too. Thank you. Thank you. 464 01:00:29,340 --> 01:00:33,340 All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye, guys. 465 01:00:39,340 --> 01:00:45,340 Thanks for making it to the end and hanging out with us. Keep on the lookout for our next episode and stay gruesome. 466 01:00:45,340 --> 01:00:49,340 [Music]